If the universe is infinite, then by definition there can be no room for a God

I'm interested to hear the arguements by those who disagreed.

1. depends on the definition of 'god'. Many people regard the universe as the 'god'.

2. your understanding of infinity is flawed, many infinite things don't overlap.

Yes, I suppose it does depend on the definition of God. Let's assume we're referring to the Judao-Christian concept of God, which as far as I know, does not regard the universe as god.

Also, please explain infinity to me. I was under the impression that infinity was the largest single concept, to which nothing could be added to. How would that allow room for anything else to exist?

GOD is not in the universe... which is what some people believe. I'm not sure about Jews/Muslims but I know that Christians believe that GOD is outside of time/universe because heaven is not considered in the universe which is his domain. "God is Spirit and He is very willing to share with us the gift of His Spirit. It is a gift and it has some conditions. "You will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart"" the main part of that statement is "God is Spirit" GOD isn't tangible unless GOD makes GOD tangible, like Christians believe with Jesus and sometimes in the Old Testament like the burning bush.

Patrick - I do understand the maths there.

I am having difficulty though conceptualising an overlap between God and the universe. If God is not 'in' the universe, and the universe is infinite - how can we we 'add' the existence of God to the equation?

The line example is instructive. We say things are infinite when they extend forever in whatever spatial dimensions they have. That doesn't mean they get in each other's way because they may exist in a higher-dimensional space. Lines on a sheet of paper don't have to intersect, even if you extend them infinitely. Planes in 3-space don't either. And our universe, be it 3, 4, or 11 dimensional, could always be floating in a larger space with God floating next to it.

Most people would be a bit less literal about the dimensions, of course.

So what you are saying is that the universe and god are two separate infinite entities?

OK - if that is true, then God can not be part of our universe.

Two separate infinite lines can intersect.

If they interesect then you can not argue that one started the other...

you can if one of the lines is only infinite in one direction and has a start at the point of intersection.

An infinite line doesn't have a start - surely?

No, but an infinite ray does. A ray by definition starts at a single point in space, and extends infinitely straight through a second point.

Like this:

A = endpoint

A      B
*-----*----->

Then it is not infinite, because you can also move the start point further back in space, lengthening the distance.

No, you can't "lengthen the distance". A ray always travels infinitely in one direction.

Yes, I meant ray, but we were talking about lines....

Moving the start point further back doesn't lengthen the distance because it's already infinite. Just like there are an infinite number of numbers higher than 8, even though you could move the start point back to include 6 and 7.

What is infinite cannot be reconciled with a point before which it does not exist.

What do you say to the portion of a number line that starts at 8? It has points before it, but is still infinite.

...unless God, too, is infinite.

The portion is not the whole.

Good wisdoms there slave2, but even though a portion is not the whole, it can still be just as infinite as the whole.

But not reconciled with it as being the same number. In one example it is the beginning in the other it is not. It's reality in either is completely different even if we choose to arbitrarily name them the same.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean there, but I think you're saying that the infinity of all the natural numbers above 8 is less than the infinity of all the natural numbers, and we just choose to call them the same.

There is of course some truth in this, concepts of equality and size don't easily translate to infinity, but as far as I know, there is no well defined concept of size that would have those two infinities as different sizes. For the most sensible ideas of size that I know of, those two infinites are exactly and provably the same. Just like 0.9999... == 1, it may well be that our maths is failing to make distinctions we would like made, but if you start to make those distinctions, you end up with even more unintuitive results.

No I'm not talking about size. What is a fraction of infinite?

My initial comment is that what is infinite cannot be reconciled with a point before which it does not exist(God existing seperate/before an infinite universe). There may be many points which can be known before it, including the ones after it, but it must still have its own reality while these other points are being explored. If it did not it would cease to be and therefore not be a part of something infinite.

In your example the point always exists as a part of an infinity so there is no real conflict. A fraction of infinite is infinite but if you try to make the case of two seperate realities, one in which infinity starts at 8 and another where there are numbers before it, the two points you have designated as 8 cannot be reconciled as being the same point.

Assume that tomorrow a child will be born that will never die.

That childs lifetime is infinite, but that child did not exist two hundred years ago.

In fact, that childs life was caused by events before it existed, and its infinite life does not preclude the existence of other individuals with infinite lifespans either.

To me, this seems like a fairly solid refutation of your point, please explain why you don't think it is.

GOD = <--------->
Universe = -----> (unless GOD feels like stopping it) You must remember that GOD can do whatever the heck he wants. If he wants to stop something he will. He is outside of time. GOD is omnipotent. You can't beat him. There is no dogma against him. Only person who can beat GOD, well I guess the only logical answer would be GOD.

I am seriously enjoying this mental exercise with you kybernetikos. You present formidable challenges.

Again however we are losing the central aspect of my argument that is, what is infinite is irreconcilable with a point before which it does not exist. Your example does not challenge this central aspect. You child with an infinite lifespan is still depending on pre-existing conditions for his conception and is intimately tied to what existed before him, therefore it is an undeniable part of his infinite reality.

If we were to concentrate then on only his consciousness, which is a purely original creation arising from the moment of his self awareness the argument still holds as his consciousness has no memory of a time in which it did not exist. Any perception of such a time existing to him could only occur during his existence and as such has no separate reality from the moment his infinite existence started.

Julian, where does a circle end?

It doesn't. My point is the definition of GOD is an omnipotent being, etc, the omnipotent part means that he is all-powerful, therefore nothing is impossible for GOD. For one GOD isn't a line GOD is more of a circle, the universe will go on forever UNLESS GOD stops it, now that really breaks the whole laws of physics thing, but hey it is GOD...

Slave, where does a circle start?
GOD was always there and will always be here.

Julian, a circle starts in the middle and ends at the start.

You missed the first one. If you draw a circle on a piece of paper where does it end? Where it began.

You seem open minded enough to me that I would be willing to debate philosophical ideas with you but at the same time you still cling desperately to ideas that are not your own. I only say this because I recognize a lot of myself at your age in your writing. You have an exciting opportunity everyday you wake up to choose how you wish to see the world but until you see it for yourself you are living in another man's dream.

O.K. you got me. But if GOD was not always here and will always be here than there would be something before GOD, if something was before him, did it create GOD? Is it in fact the true GOD? It depends what your definition of GOD is I guess.

Slave, I think I'm considering the infinite phenomenon from the outside and you're considering it from the inside. Is that an accurate characterisation?

If it is, I might agree that there is no room in an infinite universe for something that is not part of the universe (that's a different, and also interesting argument), but I would have to disagree with the idea that that precludes the existence of a God outside the universe, as the creator, maintainer and potential destroyer of it.

I think you nailed where our views are differing kyber but the majority of our ideas do not clash. We both disagree with the originating claim. I try to steer clear of naming (God) what by very definition would forever be beyond the grasp of my understanding. It seems redundant to me to deliberate what has no boundary within our reality.

I suppose the idea I have been trying to convey is that all points of an infinite exist at the same moment. In reality there are no individual points just a seamless infinite. Like your immortal child our universe if created by God is forever linked to his pre-existence as a part of it's reality though there may never be found within it's reality any evidence of such a time. It could be argued then that Gods existence before creation is also then dependent on what exists now. This does not exclude that he could have easily chosen not to create this particular reality and still existed as such an entity but there is little reason for us to debate such a reality for it obviously does not exist as far as we might ever understand.

Julian by you own definition God cannot be defined so why should we try to? Can you understand what you can never know or just know that you can never understand? Everything you think you know is nothing more than that. Jump to enough conclusions and you'll waste all your time skipping over the reality. Judge not does not just apply to your judgment of others but of everything.

The first and hardest lesson is to unlearn all you think you know. The Bible says those who seek shall find but what of those who already know? If you already have all the answers are you seeking truth or support for your own ideas?

Notice that my last claim has a lot of question marks, that last comment was more like a... question that I don't know the answer that I inquired about for like 10 seconds. I realize GOD cannot be defined and that is why i try very hard to say GOD instead of he or him when I am speaking about GOD. I am not sure how old you are but turned 12 on the 30th of May, I am still learning about things. I am reading the bible and studying world religions (not from school on my own) I imagine that the time I am an adult I will have an abundant amount more knowledge than I do now. I just realized how conformist Catholicism was, I used to think the ONLY way for forgiveness was to talk to a priest, yet I while reading the Bible I realized that wasn't what Jesus even said (what someone said that someone said that Jesus said) Jesus said that the Son of Man can forgive sins A.K.A. Yesua al Masih, Yeshua, Jesus Cristo, Jesus Christ. (Runs out of names for Jesus, the first one is Arabic) The Son of Man... meaning Jesus so what does a priest have to do with it, Why not just pray to Jesus or GOD for your sins forgiven, about 5 months before i realized that i asked my mom to take me to confession because i felt that i MUST see a priest. I'm not asking for you to cut me some slack, just to say I get pwnd (pretty much means getting owned real bad, owned means beating someone real bad) in the comments for a reason.

weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

If you are interested in world religions I suggest you read the Tao Te Ching. It is a very concise manual on the Way if you are interested in finding it.

This guy was telling me about that how the Native Americans talked about how the Great Spirit was undefinable and how they talked about "The Way"

Have you read the Tao Te Ching? (I am supposing you have)

Thanks.

For one thing, there are different levels of infinity. There are also all sorts of other things wrong with your argument. (This doesn't necessarily make the conclusion wrong, though, but it means the conclusion still can be wrong)

There are many examples of infinite sets that do not intersect. I think we have room for an infinite number of infinities.