Americans should be proud to be American.

if they had something to be proud of. lately that doesn't seem possible.

Meant to disagree 3 seconds from posting, not 3 minutes. Oopsies!

I'm not proud of anything I had no part in.

You do have a part in it. I still think, despite everything, it's an incredibly good place. The world would be worse off without the IDEA of America.

I agree that the idea of America is pretty nifty, and I like lots of things about the Constitution, et cetera.

However, I didn't set those things up. My Mom and my Dad happened to be American citizens and I was born in America. That doesn't make me Thos. Jefferson.

E-that was the point I was trying to make.

But by living and working there you are sustaining that idea. You're part of the idea. Just as I am part of the idea of a populace subjacted by a monarch and an official religion.

In other words, by being American, you stand for something. I could choose to stand for something as well, but I don't like moving and I'm too much of a cumdgeon to be an American anyway.

Nic, I see your point, but I think there's a fundamental difference between "not being ashamed" and "being proud." I don't find myself saying "America: Fuck Yeah!" except when I'm singing songs from TA:WP. But, likewise, I don't feel shame at being American. I'm descended from frickin' John Addams after all.

But I don't take pride in things that I didn't actively take action for. I'm proud of my blog, my job, my cars, my relationships, the stuff I write, and the alcohol I make. I'm not proud of my gender, my nationality, or my religion.

Ok. I get that.

I think you could be proud though. If you wanted.

thanks, nic, I appreciate that.

np.

Cobra -- yeah, I reckoned that's what you meant, but when you hadn't responded yet I embroidered your theme a bitsy.

What's a cumdgeon? Is it as dirty as it sounds?

Luke-

It's possible to have a degree of control in your next door neighbor's GPA. Maybe you're their teacher, or tutor, or you study together.

And I know a lot of people with a hand in their hair color.

Just a thought.

Being American is a prestigious line of work with a long and glorious tradition.

I don't mind if people are proud of their glorious history, or the great things that have been done by people when they are carrying along in the same tradition.

However, the USA, and to a lesser extent the UK and some others are currently carrying on in a way that eclipses any former glory you may want to attribute to them.

If you want to be proud of the things you think the USA used to stand for, but you're not standing up *now* against the forces that want to merge church and state, grant overriding power to the executive, imprison people without due legal process, torture people, subordinate the rights of the people to have their vote count to the rights of electronic voting machine vendors to sell their wares, imposing their will and trade on foreign nations (without representation), then you cannot claim to be part of the same USA.

If the USA is an 'idea' as people seem to keep saying then you can't be proud of it unless you have the same idea.

proud of what? elected dubya? not once, but twice. real proud of ya.

some humility goes a long way to restore the confidence in america for the rest of the earthlings.

Be proud and fly your flags and never forget the sacrifice of others that helped to make this the greatest place to live on the planet. Freedom isn't free. Move to Canada, Mexico, Venezuela, etc etc if you're an American and you disagreed with this claim. The pride of Americans is what got us where we are today, pride took down Nazi Germany, pride is what makes us the most giving nation on earth. No doubt, shameful things have happened in America but there's a lot more to be proud of than ashamed of.

adam, I must ask...have you read the comments on this claim? It's very clear within them that Americans who disagree with this claim (such as myself and Cobra Baghdad) do not disagree with it because we are ashamed of the nation of our birth, but rather because we feel we cannot be 'proud' of an accident of birth.

My mom did the hard work of my birth. I just squalled and kicked a little. There's not much to be proud in there.

P.S. To anyone who thinks I'm feeding a troll -- I read adam's claims and some of his other comments, and I don't think he's a troll, just a bit strident here.

what's a troll? anyhow, this discussion may be too deep for me. nevertheless, you are an adult and can now choose where you want to gain residency and citizenship. being American does not just mean being born in America. there are those who did not accidentally gain citizenship through birth but rather choice, like my grandmother who immigrated to Ellis Island from Sicily or the Project Manager from India who I worked with who is taking courses to gain her citizenship.

ok. just read the wikipedia definition of a troll. I'm not a troll. quite the contrary. I just got a little fired up when reading claims on Memorial Day from people who aren't proud to be Americans.

and on the topic of trolls and jyte, jyte needs arguments. I believe that it is the foundation for the whole app - someone posts a claim, maybe a controversial one, and others get a chance to agree or disagree and then comment. when it comes to politics and country, you have to expect that people will have a passionate opinion.

No worries, adam. Argument's fine -- hence my engaging with you. I merely added the postscript because some people here have a really anti-troll-feeding stance. I wanted to make it clear I thought you honestly wanted to talk, despite sounding "fired up".

Trolling's a bit different from honest argument, but there are probably huge discussions of that on the various claims about trolls.

I almost put something in my response to you about naturalization -- I almost said, "If I were naturalized, for instance, I'd be proud of my citizenship because I achieved it." But to my knowledge, nobody that voted on this claim is a naturalized American.

Your comment made me think a bit. When I read it, my knee sort of jerked around the bit about Nazi Germany -- as in, "Hey, my Grandpa has two purple hearts for badassery and my Great-Uncle helped liberate Bergen-Belsen! I'm plenty proud of that!" Of course, this puts a crimp in the super-rational 'proud only of own actions' thing. I didn't give medical care to starving inmates. I didn't walk for miles in the snow with frostbitten feet and two machine gun bullets in my arm. And yet I feel proud. My swelling heart does not pump green Vulcan blood!

So I made this claim to explore the contradictions. Thanks for making me think about that!

I'm going to agree with "should be" as in "should be but can't" at the moment.

@kyber, you can't really apply the actions of an administration on the nation as a whole. You'd need to say "...the current administration is currently carrying on in a way that eclipses any former glory you may want to attribute..."

You can't expect change *now* though - the nice thing about democracy is it's built in pressure-release mechanisms that allow changes to occur without revolutionary speed. The bad thing is what happens in the mean time.

That said I'm shocked it was even possible for what has happened to have taken place.

Fair point loudej, but in the end when people think of a countries history, a large part of that is what the leaders of that country did.

I want to move to Canada. I am not proud to live in a country that has caused so much death and destruction around the world. I realize it is mostly the leaders but it isn't like they are going to ask the citizens if they want to go to war.

Death and destruction is what we'd have plenty more of if we let the terrorists continue their games. At least we're doing something about it. They want you dead for the sole reason that you don't share their exact same religious beliefs, and the only way to keep them from killing you, Julian, is to get at them the only way we know to be effective. No one likes war. I'm as anti-war as they come, but these people are not rational thinkers over there, and they don't understand the concept of reason. They want big fat explosions and murder everywhere if we don't agree with their delusions. It's a sick world out there, and someone has to put them in their place, or they'll be putting us in our place.

I suggest you move to Canada where everyone loves one another and they have none of the crime and treachery we have here and they never kill anyone abroad.

You know why they never kill anyone abroad??????

THEY WON'T BE ATTACKED BECAUSE WE ARE THEIR NEIGHBORS! It's OK to be a pacifist when you live next door to the biggest kid on the block.

Lastly, if we are so bad whay does everyone want to move here?

Mrs G, I think that's a far too simplistic analysis of the terrorists motivations, but if we're going to discuss that, we should start a new claim.

Mr G, Do you really think that Canada would be invaded by anyone if they weren't neighboured with the States? I don't think that we're at a stage in history where it makes a lot of sense to go invading other countries, and it's likely to stay that way for a while.

Lastly, by no means everyone wants to move to the States, as far as I know, Australia and Canada are higher up the list of preferred emigration destinations than the States for people in developing countries. After a number of visits for example, I certainly do not want to move there.

PG You made me sad. Terrorist CANT HARM US MAN. 9/11 was a totally inside job you just should see the amazing amount of evidence dude. Just watch on august 23rd or around then there will be some sort of framed terrorist attack they are going to do martial law oh it is going to SUCK. Look lady. My Dad tells em all about the situation in the middle east, he fought in the lebanese civil war, he says the terrorists are so divided they probably couldnt even get on to american soil and destroy a building. You realize we have killed 60 thousand iraq civillians, oh man you know what i am going to wear out my fingers if i want to keep going on the horrible government we have. VOTE FOR RON PAUL. damnd emocrats better impeach bush.

(whoops, meant 'developed' countries)

@ KYB, No, I don't think they'll be invaded but I do think they have a measurable amount of security because they live next to us.

If it's preferred to immigrate to Canada and Austrlia do you mean to say that the Crim-aliens can't make it all the way across the US to get to Canada or is it that there are so many freebies here they elect not to go on. i.e. the path of least resistance?

As far as the Crim-aliens making it to Australia. They can't hard swim the Rio Grande or make the 90 miles from Cuba. Aistrlia does look nice but fuck if I could jump a fence and get there or make it in a modified floating truck I'd go to!

FG: I agree, Canada do have improved security against some threats because the USA is their neighbour. Only problem is, the threats you help them against are largely irrelevant in the modern world. They are probably in more danger from more relevant threats such as terrorism and its side effects than they would be if they had a less powerful and belligerant neighbour.

The comment about Canada and Australia wasn't to talk about the preferred destination of what seem to be a very specific category of people you're talking about, it was in answer to your question "If we are so bad, why does everyone want to move here?". What I was getting at is although yes, you do have a good standard of living, and many people do want to go there, it certainly isn't everyone, and many many of those who have a realistic choice (rather than just a best hope) don't want to move there.

Perhaps even that response wasn't right - wealth doesn't imply morality. Many people will be attracted to wealth, but wealth alone doesn't make a country great. Which is just as well for the States, since most of the wealth there over the past few years has been borrowed from parts of the world you wouldn't like to live.

In theory, Americas should be proud to be Americans... regardless of what any American government is doing.

What should they be proud of tenebrus? What does it mean to "be american"?

If it just means being born in a particular place, they should not be proud.

If it just means having the power to militarily and economically oppress other parts of they world to achieve a higher standard of living, they should not be proud.

If it means having such a strong sense of individual responsibility that the sick poor are left on the street to die, they should not be proud.

If it means believing in freedom and the equality of all people in worth and rights, limitation of the power of the government, the sovereignty of the citizen, the joining together of diverse states for the greater good, well, those are things an american can be proud of, but if those are the things you're proud of, I don't want to hear "patriots" talking as if the life of an Iraqi is worth less than the life of an American, I don't want to hear them justifying the governments wiretapping program, or legislating for a particular religion, I don't want to hear them saying (as I've heard too many times) "my country right or wrong", or refusing the right they have to think about what their country is doing.

You know, there was a time when "my country" for an American was Britain, but that was not right, it was wrong, and true Americans fought it.

If you want to be proud of what the leaders of your past did, you should at least accept some of the responsibility for what your current leaders are doing. Especially when the people you're proud of fought specifically for your right to hold your leaders to account.